Saying rap is black music is like saying relativity is Jewish science.

But hey, anytime you hear someone say non-black people "look like African-Americans," ...you gotta laugh. "Malay's are the blacks of Singapore"??? I mean, this is really good material... for stand-up comedy.

As for the "distribution of black culture"... I don't know what is better: for people to reject hip hop because it is alien, or to embrace its two-dimensional stereotypes without cynicism.

I'm trying to sort out some of these issues for a book. I think there is a big element of authenticity. People view blacks as representatives of "their people", instead of as individuals. And, sadly, the media is more than happy to make this a virtual reality.

could you please explain a little further why you don't consider rap to be black music?

i would agree that black music is not rap, but disagree that rap is not black music.

while rap has been appropriated by various cultures, and continues to evolve and encompass many different types of people, i think at its base, rap is very much black music.

it seems your analogy falls short... relativity was essentially a discovery/theory made by one person, but rap, and by extension hip-hop, is a product of at least a generation.

if rap isn't black music, what is?

or is the point simply that rap as it exists today has been bastardized so much by the record industry that it no longer reflects the communities it sprang from?

genuinely curious.

I think you misunderstood the point i was trying to make. my point is that rap music and its artists tends to end up being the sole portrayal of "black" people in America. certainly hip-hop as a culture is African...the roots are clearly evident. thus, so is the music...it's a continuum of the African tradition.

Here read something from another essay I wrote:
"In hip-hop music; more specifically in the rapping aspect of the musical genre, there exists a cultural performance practice referred to as dissing (to disrespect, ridicule, or insult) that is the progeny of African vernacular traditions. These oral traditions, after Africans were transported to the Americas, later evolved into signifying, toasting, and playing the dozens."

and:
"Signifying, as it is discussed here, becomes a lens by which to interpret the MCs role in the continuum of African vernacular cultural traditions. "Signifyin(g) is a way of saying one thing and meaning another, it is a reinterpretation, a metaphor for the revision of previous texts and figures, it is tropological thought, repetition with difference, the obscuring of meaningÑall to achieve or reverse power, to improve situations, and to achieve pleasing results for the signifier. For in Signifyin(g), the emphasis is on the signifier, not the signified. In African-American music, musical figures Signify by commenting on other musical figures, on themselves, on performances of other music, on other performances of the same piece, and on completely new works of music" (Floyd, Jr. 1995, 95).
Clearly, rapping, as performed by an MC, is a direct descendant of this vernacular tradition. It can be heard in MCs boasting, dissing, and heavy use of pop cultural references."

I haven't even touched upon the beat and rhythmic structure, which is explained to its fullest in realest in Tricia Rose's book, Black Noise
Rap Music and Black Culture in Contemporary America.

I called my post...ince when was being African-American synonomous with hip-hop?

Because it bothers me that hip-hop becomes the standard by which my blackness is judged. I am a black woman, I grew up in the Boogie Down Bronx, I not only read about or know about rap's roots, I lived it. But what I hear in most rap songs or see in most rap videos, is not fully indicative or representative of my life nor of the lives of my black comrades.

So the title of my post was asking does being African-American only mean that you have to be about hip-hop? being African-American, is not being hip-hop...not entirely. it is so many other things...as I allude to in the post.

I am a hip-hop head no doubt...I even call myself a hip-hop preservationist, but what I am talking about is something that comes from the four pillars of hip-hop culture, it's foundation. Not what gets distributed on cable networks and from most major labels.

Hopefully you understand me now.

lynne --

actually, i think i always understood your point and agree with you completely. my post was in response to eric's comments, not your original diary entry.

sorry for the confusion.

none the less, thanks for the enlightening response... especially the excerpt re: Signifying.

ah hah...now I see it, "Saying rap is black music is like saying relativity is Jewish science." I'm sorry, I go on and on and on sometimes, especially when it's about hip-hop. After I went back and read your post, after I went on and on, I saw that you understood me: "or is the point simply that rap as it exists today has been bastardized so much by the record industry that it no longer reflects the communities it sprang from?" I'm sorry for the confusion.

OK, so Eric, what were you saying then that made SAS question your post? Clarify, my man. :-)

I must say that I love this entry and that it touches on several things.

Personally (these feelings might only be considered relative, but should be offered anyhow), I feel that we should stop using the term "black music". I think music has come to a point where it's cross-cultural and inclusive and to label a genre by race is borderline prejudiced. Artists like Lenny and Eminem totally disprove the existence of "black music". (Truth be told, one could argue that African-Americans were the original purveyors of rock.) That's almost like telling someone what they should perform or listen to because of the color of their skin.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that although hip-hop is the most commercially successful black cultural product of the last twenty years, it sometimes does us a disservice because it's what a less-informed public uses to identify our people. All too often our heros are label executives and rap artists. When most black youth name successful black businessman thay say Master P., P. Diddy, or Dame Dash. In the meantime, people like Irv Gotti are being investigated for a host of crimes and Suge Knight is in and out of prison. Other races see this, and take note.

Otherwise, I love your diary (I think this is the first time I posted) and your opinion matters much to someone like me.

There is a big difference between giving credit for the origins and development of rap music. But what about the fact that there are so many non-blacks involved with hip hop? Is there a certain percentage of black people that qualifies it as "black music"? What if only 65% of rap artists are black... is it still black music? What if only 40% of people involved were black... still black music? Where do we draw the line? Or is all that matters the origin? Should we call classical music "white music"? There are black people and white people all over the world, why not call it "American music", which is actually a lot more specific, since there are more black people outside of the U.S., than inside it.

As a white person, i always cringe when i tell white people about my involvement with hip hop and they think it is strictly a black thang. Yet half the hip hop heads I know are white. Should the hip hop made by white people be called "white music"? I think we should just not ascribe race to music. It doesn't explain anything about the music, unless you want to call it "post-slave music".

SAS --
on the subject of bastardization, i think people like Jay-Z, Nas, Chingy, etc are simply giving the people what they want to hear. To me it is all marketing. I don't believe any of these people, no matter how powerful they are... are asserting their true selves. I know there are some funny black people out there... why are there so few funny rappers? I know there are some thoughtful and sensitive black people... why don't we hear any on the radio? I know there are some black people who aren't obsessed with sex and clothes and stuff... but you wouldn't know that from the radio.

Can a community be represented in any accurate manner, if the diversity of that group is not represented? Sure, there are lots of black people like the ones on TV and the radio, but that is such a small portion of the community and not a very enlightening one, I might add. I say, especially since it is such a narrow, 2-dimensional representation of black people, that we shouldn't call it "black music" for that reason alone.

Lynne--
yeah, tricia's book is a powerhouse. it's a little too sociologico-academico for me, but she covers everything. no stones unturned. I agree that the confrontational and subtext aspects of hip hop are really interesting. yeah, Ben Sidran also wrote and interesting book about jazz, which I'm sure you've read. he talked a lot about the oral tradition and subtext and all that.

as far as the african connection, clearly there is a rhythmic and griot tradition. but black people in america have taken music to such a high level of sophistication that African traditions only explain a small part of the story. There is so much to African-American music history that it just boggles the mind. People like Ellington, Mingus, and Yusef Lateef synthesized the African-American canon with European, Latin, and even Asian traditions. What is most unique about African-American music history is the synthesis of many different styles. It is much more a story of inclusion, rather than exclusion. Racial labels are denote exclusion, and for that reason also I think any racial labels are misleading.

But, yeah, it's good to sort out all this stuff. I think this sort of conversation needs to happen more often. A lot of people are really afraid to sort out these types of issues, because it always gets so political. But I try to take the semantic angle.

There is this book I reveiewed that kind of hits on this...Mulatto America: At the Crossroads of Black and White Culture: A Social History by Stephen Talty. My analysis of the book, though I felt Talty wasn't really telling us anything new, it wasn't llike many of the other books out there now, like the Greg Tate edited Everything But The Burden, that only speaks of how whites took black culture, etc. To Talty's credit, he analyzes the synthesis of all of these cultures coming together in America to produce a culture that is American. My only problem with Talty's book, and maybe I misunderstood him, was that he's pointing to some sort of erasure of the color line. From where I sit, that simply isn't true. Yes, economics are playing more of a role in how the power structure is mapped out in America, but racial problems still persist.

Thanks for clarifying E. I thought you could shed light for those who were confused by your statements...

oh shit, i put nas on that list with Jay-Z and Chingy out of habit. i would actually say nas is an exception. especially in his early days.

you know, in many ways, i think hip hop has undermined black culture as a whole. hip hop is how stick up kids, dope dealers, gold diggers, strippers, and now pimps, validate their dysfunctional behavior, and that's sad. i still contend, there are GROWN MEN who know hip hop history far better than they know black history......i'll go more in depth about this in the article i'm writing.

that would be the article you're writing for me, right? :-)

eric --

i think you bring up a very good point re: calling hip-hop a "black" thing when in fact it has been embraced by so many different people. i'm reminded of a similar discussion i was involved in awhile back where i was basically reflecting the stance you are taking now.

to continue playing devil's advocate for the purposes of this conversation however, i think it -is- important to recognize the origins of a cultural phenomenon. e.g., bhangra is a native folk music that originated in punjab, india. in recent times, many heads in britain have latched on and are creating bhangra beats (it's crossing over here as well of course, see jay-z mucking up the punjabi mc track), but i would argue that it should still be considered punjabi music. it -is- punjabi music. at what point does it become british music? or world music? or, just music? i don't know... it's just one of those things... a matter of perspective.

i think maybe what you were getting at pretty much sums it up: in terms of origin and a birthing, hip-hop -is- a black thing... but music, as nOva pointed out, just is. it's music, and it probably is detrimental to put labels on it... it undermines the healing and joining force that can be so intrinsic to music.

what i find concerning however is that once music gets accepted by a wide audience, the origin can be forgotten and i think that's a problem. some people don't realize that jazz was a product of the black community... as was the blues... rock... house... so on.

anyway, enough rambling...

*blink!*

yeah, i think not knowing the origins and the original context means you actually miss out on the essence of the music. but we still need to move on and not linger on the past.

but, yeah, hardCore you raise an interesting point about how a lot of people use hip hop to, in essence, "validate" sociopathic and nihilistic behavior. it's like people say, "hey, i'm fucked in the head. but there's all these other fucked up kids who will buy my music." or just kids who kind of fantasize about being reckless like you hear about a lot of innercity youth.