NOW, we're getting back to the nitty gritty! I wish I was in NYC so I could host a salon with you, Lynne.

BTW, tell Donald to hurry up and bring his narrow ass back on line.

The issue with any art, I believe, is that while the creator of an artistic work has any number of responsibilities, the viewer of said work has a responsibility to be a thinker, instead of merely a reciever.

As a writer, I say this. When I write a poem or a play or an essay, I don't write it with the expectation that somebody is going to suddenly look for a way to live their life or as a justification for how they're living their own life, inside of what I write. And I doubt that anybody reads anything that I write with those intentions. And I do believe the true power in art lies in its ability to inform us and enrich us with different viewpoints, moreso than acting as the blueprint for people's lives.

We collectively, have been discussing the messages in hip hop for a number of years and whether or not they are destructive or constructive. And while I won't attempt to bring any sort of 'moral standard' to whatever the collective tenor of those may be these days right this moment, I will say that no matter what, the issue comes down to the role that the messages have played in our lives.

And for the last decade and longer (I'm 25), I've noticed that people my age and slightly older and definitely younger, have been looking for guidance from somewhere outside of themselves. And in the absence of those voices that apparently used to be around back in the day for our elders, hip hop has filled that void.

And instead of hip hop functioning, as many still say to this day, as simply a mirror reflecting the realities of Black life (assuming of course, we've all had all the same experiences), instead, it functions more or less like the bible to many folks out there. I know people who have, as I stated above, either used the messages in the music as a way of life, or as a justification of the way they were living their life. "So and so says this." Or "so and so had to do this to get by, so I'm gonna do this too cause I don't rap."

And on top of all that...

it really trips me out when I consider how one can look at an artist who may talk about hustling and scrimping and scraping in their raps, while at the same time, they're off setting up business empires with the obvious thought funding themselves and their familes and their boys and their families for generations to come, and not say, "maybe I can do this." Or "maybe I should try this." At the very least, "I can rise up just like that brother."

What trips me out is when I talk to people who are really into hip hop music and latch onto the message in the music as their mantra as opposed to the straight power moves that the artist may be making in the background. And in this day in age, it's not like any of this stuff is a secret. Hip hop artists that become business moguls are becoming commonplace, dare I say, almost like Starbucks (and I guess in the music industry, you need it). But then sometimes, this point will be raised. And all sorts of other counterpoints will be raised such as the artist was already making money when they started their new business or they used contacts that they made when they became famous. All of this while flipping through the latest Source, which started as a college newsletter, not as the glossy monthly it exists as today.

That's the funny thing about hip hop. While it may export the very worst images filled with ugly images of lives lived full of desperation, it seems like so many people there are ambitious as any venture capitalist, any industrialist of the late 1800's - 1900's, any technology CEO of the last decade.

The problem is that *that* message isn't filtering down to the streets. No, they want to reflect back the "reality" that's being reflected to them by the music. Yet, folks never think they can be the one holding the mirror ... or any mirror.

And in summation since I'm rambling like crazy...

We as Black people have to demand more from our artists to take it to a higher level (yes, I do think there are too many negative messages in hip hop.)

We as Black people need to vote with our money for the hip hop that we want to hear. Let's not complain about the game, let's change it. And since the game runs on money, we have to be more cognoscent of how we spend ours.

We need to independently document the history and evolution of Hip Hop. Support the initiatives in place or start your own, if you feel strongly enough about it.

We need to teach our children to think again (and re-teach our adults). I believe anybody who is a free thinker would be able to enjoy hip hop, no matter what the images are, and decide to make choices for their own lives.

agree wholeheartedly and I\'m gonna quit burning music off of Kazaa and buy it for real cuz we need to support our music...... + real hip hop is hard to find nowadays

You know, hip-hop is no longer just \"the music\" now - and it hasn\'t been for a while. So, while I definitely agree about putting our money where our mouth is, in general, I think it\'s also time to call hip-hop out for how is has (and systematically continues to) fail Black people. Its music (the lack of creativity in this \'art\' is appalling), its business (what does the acumen of hip-hop business consist of, who is participating and who is profitting - and who isn\'t?), its messages (the countless images of Black men dumbed down (and lit up), the de facto allure of violence, the anti-intellectualism, the blatant misogyny - and its automatically related homophobia, and especially the one-trick pony of claiming rage against a system while doing (and selling) whatever is necessary to be part of it) are now ubiquitous, and some would even say they reflect the definitive Black American experience. And that is a lie - a lie that\'s detrimental to the very core o!
f the Black psyche.

Good Lawd! This post & comments are priceless.

I\'m always curious when i hear the term, \"real hip hop.\" That means there is something called \"fake hip hop,\" but what is that? who defines what is \"real\" and what is \"fake\"?? i think the beauty in hip hop is that there has always been room for different types of music/artists to co-exist. Even today, you have Nelly, you have Jay-Z, you have Eminem, which some may not consider \"real hip hop.\" But on the flip side you also have Mos Def, Kweli, Dead Prez, Outkast, De La is still doing it, Blackalicious, etc. all these groups considered \"real hip hop\" because they are in essence \"conscious.\" Yes i think revolutionary hip hop, the anti-war, social critiques are seemingly lacking today, but that is because the MAINSTREAM Media isn\'t playing those songs. When is the last time you heard Saul WIlliams or Sarah Jones on the radio?? We can BARELY hear \"Get By\" by Talib Kweli. So no, i don\'t think hip hop is totally to blame for its apathy. we must look at !
the bigger picture, what is going on w/ our world? what is up with the media? etc...before we deliver a beat down to hip hop, we have to look at everything that informs the artists who are currently making this music.

"hip hop is the love of my life" - common

i know common was just showing love for hip hop in the above quote, but the more i really analyze that statement, the more i see the real problem with hip hop. HIP HOP is undermining BLACK CULTURE. first off, hip hop is not a culture, it's a sub-culture at best. and i find it quite embarrasing that the average black kid knows the names of all of Nas's albums, but can't tell you what year Black people were Emancipated. the average hip hop fan has more cd's than books in their homes. and this would suggest to me, that young blacks DO look to hip hop for more than just art. they look to hip hop for answers. to reaffirm their belief systems. and when you look at hip hop as a WHOLE, you have to cringe at the answers they're getting, and at the direction they're being led in. and hip hop DOES affect the listeners. hip hop has redefined what's status quo. they have created a standard of living that is unattainable not only for their listeners, but even for themselves. see MTV Cribs. but record companies are smart, they want their artists to LOOK the part. so they LET the artist live in those RENTED mansions. but that disclaimer is never seen at the bottom of the screen when you watch MTV cribs. hip hop used to be rebel music, now the rebels have no cause. and i'm pissed, cause i truly believe the next great mind, that next Malcolm X is not out fighting for the struggle, instead he's at home with a book of rhymes, trying to figure out another clever way to say he just got brains from a dime. that to me is sad, and hip hop is directly to blame. one.

Of course y'all know I got lots to respond to here. But I said lots in the initial situation set up here. But as I think more and more on this...I do want to share something that jazz muscian and futuristic shaman Sun Ra once said : "I never wanted to be a leader...." "...I didn't want that because I saw what was happening to leaders. I thought leaders were an endangered species."

As I said in my discussion with Donald. F*** hip-hop. I mean this in the sense that this is not about hip hop failing us, it is not about elders failing us...we are failing ourselves and our youth. I don't know all of you who have said something here, but I know that most are between their late 20s and early 30s. Well my thought is this, and old adage comes to mind...if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I hope you get my drift. Let's not look to hip hop or elders to represent, let's represent ourselves. And I believe that is what this dialogue is about.

There are no more Malcom X's no more MLK Jr.'s, so let's dead that discussion. And we all agree that hip hop, in its present state, the hip hop that is the music industry (and not the culture) is negative for people of color on so many levels. So since we all agree on these things...what will we do to challenge all of that? We are we directing our energies.

When I speak of hip hop as a culture or say I'm about hip hop, I mean it in the sense that I have hip hop sensibilities. That I grew up in hip hop, and not just the music but a time that represented an awakening in artistic manifestations of dance, oral culture, technological innovation, and visual art. I come from and speak from that place, at my core, in my heart. But when I say I represent hip hip, it does not mean I listen to the music all day long or represent Jay Z or 50 to the fullest. So when I say that hip hop can be used as an agent of change, if you follow my way of thinking, you can understand. It's like the pied piper...if it's what the majority of the community can understand, then that is where you have to meet the community with other messages...and expand it to its widest possible fractals and permutations.

Damn, folks got me hyped.

One last thing...if you have children, please don't look to Jay Z or Nelly or Ja Rule, or whomever to educate them, please make sure that happens at home. You should be teaching your kids, not "Rap City."

The music of hip hop is for entertainment and biz purposes, solely, believe dat.

i feel you, i'm not trying to knock anyone's hustle. but like a dope dealer, rappers are getting rich, and the walking zombies are taking the form of the future generation. so the same way, i don't condone selling drugs, i can't condone selling lyrics about Pimps, Hoes, Drugs, and Killing.......unless you put a disclaimer on the front of the album saying......THIS IS PURELY FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES, BELIEVE IT AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION.

Hardcore--
i don't think RAP music needs to put any type of disclaimer on it's package. this music is not intended to teach children, that's what parents (or other adults) are SUPPOSED to do. yes, we have a breakdown in the Black family. this is not due to hip hop. this is due to many things. we need to examine the historical factors that have contributed to why we are so fractured (yup, i mean slavery...it STILL effects us).

as Lynne stated, i grew up IN hip hop. i'm still growing (i will be 23 in 2 months). yes, i felt/feel hip hop because it is STILL rebel music (i.e. Mos, Kwa, Dead Prez, Tribe, Roots, De La, etc, etc). it's still growing and changing. yes, what we see in MAINSTREAM media sucks, plain and simple. it doesn't promote positive messages, but IT, this music is merely a symptom is larger issues. WHY are our communities so poor? why are they filled with violence? our communities were poor and violent and run-down before hip hop came out. all the music did was comment on it. instead of blaming a cluture (and yes, i belive hip hop is a cluture), we need to look at what is at the root of all of this madness. WHY are we in the situation we're in. WHY do we as a community have THESE problems. why do we lack unity?? i think once we start dealing with THOSE issues, this rap shit will continue to remain.

i agree with Lynne...be proactive! change some shit, move people.

Hip-hop is only a symptom of the problem? I find that concept to be way too simplistic - and almost disingenuous. Especially now that we're in 2003 - not 1993. With hip-hop, Black people have created an onslaught of nihilistic metamessages detrimental to our own people! What other form of Black music can you say that about? Black people have ALWAYS had hard times - harder than anything we could even imagine (well, that requires some familiarity with our history) ... so hip-hop only being a symptom of a larger problem? No. If that's the case, how come slave songs, gospel, jazz and blues, rock-n-roll, R&B, house music - how come NONE of those forms of Black music contain, systematically, the same vitriolic dehumanization that hip-hop proudly wears on its sleeve? The preponderance of worldwide distribution? What? And if THAT'S the case, WHY hasn't the 'positivity' of underground hip-hop permeated commercial hip-hop - especially here at home, in OUR neighborhoods?

You know, I'm not a hip-hop head (like Lynne!) so I'm not someone who can name all of Nas' albums. It's my hope that the conversation will continue with people who know more about hip-hop who recognize how hip-hop undermines Black culture. And maybe the deconstruction that will occur during this conversation can lead to some introspection, to some analysis, to some solutions ... and maybe to some healing.

If you get a chance to see Amandla! (http://www.amandla.com/), run don't walk to the theater. It's a breathtaking documentary about the history of protest songs in South Africa. I mean, damn, the children are singing those songs - and they sing them proudly along with their elders. It's just amazing and beautiful how Black people have ALWAYS been so innovative in creating music that elevates our spirits. That is specifically why hip-hop is SUCH a disappointment.

I've been saying for years that one of the worst things that ever happened to hip-hop was the unrealistic expectations we came to place upon it, as far as its potential to fill the Black community's leadership/activist void.

Hip-Hop became the dominant cultural force for black people at the same time we developed a void in terms of leadership/activism.. the last generation of militant Black activist faded away, whether due to cointelpro or whatever other factors you want to blame.. the church's influence had waned.. and it was at that moment that hip-hop rose to prominence. So perhaps it was easy to fall into the assumption that Hip-Hop ought to fill the void left by those other elements.

But that assumption was misguided. Hip-Hop is young people trying to make good music. Period. If they put across "positive" messages in that music, great. If they have ignorant, negative messages, they deserve to be criticized. But beyond that, they should not held up to any different standard than we used to judge Muddy Waters or Sarah Vaughan or Eric Dolphy or Minnie Riperton. If I said those artists failed us because they did not help us raise our kids, or because they did not develop a comprehensive blueprint for effective social activism, you would laugh in my face. Judging Hip-Hop by those criteria is no less bankrupt, and terribly unfair to the artists in question.

Donald, dear. i'm not too well versed in all things jazz or blues, so i can't really make a comparison b/w those genres and hip hop. however, i do agree, this is a complex issue. however hip hop isn't to blame for the entire break down of the black community. you have to look at the times in which hip hop came about. what was going on?

in the early 1980s we had Regan, his fucked up Regaonomics plan, the influx of crack into our neighborhoods, the downsizing of public arts/music programs in public schools, and the loss of industrial jobs. so all of these things contributed to hip hop's mentality.

you know what? as i'm writing there, there's so much i want to say, but i'm tired. i've been working w/ kids all day, so i will come back to this...hopefully tomorrow. this discussion is interesting tho. i shall return.