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01.11.05 07:01 PM
that greg tate piece
ambivalentsins (6:25:29 PM): why is everybody talking about this greg tate piece?
lynneluvah (6:30:48 PM): hee hee
lynneluvah (6:30:55 PM): i was about to put up my post about it too
lynneluvah (6:30:58 PM): i just haven't had time
lynneluvah (6:31:01 PM): have you read it
ambivalentsins (6:31:20 PM): yeah....i think i've been asked to write my opinion about it on my site
lynneluvah (6:31:42 PM): i'm gonna
ambivalentsins (6:31:45 PM): my only problem with articles like this is...
lynneluvah (6:31:45 PM): join the fray
lynneluvah (6:31:56 PM): i studied him
ambivalentsins (6:31:58 PM): why are all this educated people looking to hip hop for solutions ? lol
lynneluvah (6:32:01 PM): when i was learning to be a journalist
lynneluvah (6:32:09 PM): but they're not
lynneluvah (6:32:15 PM): i think that's the point folks miss
lynneluvah (6:32:21 PM): see to really old heads
lynneluvah (6:32:26 PM): hip hop is not just this industry
lynneluvah (6:32:28 PM): it was a culute
lynneluvah (6:32:30 PM): culture
lynneluvah (6:32:35 PM): like the cover of the
lynneluvah (6:32:38 PM): voice said
lynneluvah (6:32:41 PM): folk art
lynneluvah (6:32:42 PM): whatever
lynneluvah (6:32:45 PM): and usually folks art
ambivalentsins (6:32:48 PM): right..
lynneluvah (6:32:53 PM): is involved in political stances
lynneluvah (6:32:55 PM): change
lynneluvah (6:32:56 PM): etc
lynneluvah (6:33:02 PM): if you look around the world
lynneluvah (6:33:07 PM): i think the angle also is that
lynneluvah (6:33:16 PM): since it's a multibillion industry
lynneluvah (6:33:19 PM): and has so much clout
lynneluvah (6:33:28 PM): y r the folks who've come up in the industry
lynneluvah (6:33:34 PM): not doing more for the af am community overall
lynneluvah (6:33:39 PM): not specifically the music
ambivalentsins (6:33:42 PM): right....however....
lynneluvah (6:33:58 PM): u know i'ma post this convo
lynneluvah (6:34:02 PM): so say what you mean
lynneluvah (6:34:11 PM): this is the easiest way for me to get my opinions out about this
lynneluvah (6:35:00 PM): where'd u go
lynneluvah (6:35:04 PM): i want the however
ambivalentsins (6:35:05 PM): if you look at run dmc's first 12...it was "it's like that" on one side, and "sucka mc's" on the other.....one is a social record..the other is a party record..i think the two have always existed simultaneously in hip hop..only now..that hip hop is pop..........
lynneluvah (6:35:14 PM): oh yes
lynneluvah (6:35:17 PM): balance
lynneluvah (6:35:24 PM): but balance is lacking nowadays
lynneluvah (6:35:29 PM): in the music itself
ambivalentsins (6:35:35 PM): have the records all seemed to slant to the party side...because...that's what white america aka..the record buyers want to hear
lynneluvah (6:36:10 PM): and in the images that the purveyors of the culture
lynneluvah (6:36:12 PM): push to the fore
lynneluvah (6:36:18 PM): nah
lynneluvah (6:36:22 PM): i wouldn't say that
ambivalentsins (6:36:22 PM): what i know is...white america is not so fascinated with our struggle as they are our style
lynneluvah (6:36:28 PM): oh of course
lynneluvah (6:36:33 PM): have you ever read leroi jones
ambivalentsins (6:36:38 PM): yeah
lynneluvah (6:36:39 PM): amiri baraka's blues people
ambivalentsins (6:36:45 PM): right
lynneluvah (6:36:47 PM): the same things about jazz in there
lynneluvah (6:36:49 PM): and the style
lynneluvah (6:37:04 PM): but why is is that we always gotta take that to the x degree
lynneluvah (6:37:06 PM): ?
lynneluvah (6:37:18 PM): it's almost as if slavery has taught us nothing
ambivalentsins (6:37:19 PM): hmmm
lynneluvah (6:37:23 PM): now i'm all for shaking my ass
lynneluvah (6:37:27 PM): don't get me wrong
lynneluvah (6:37:36 PM): but again if this is a multibillion dollar industry
lynneluvah (6:37:46 PM): and black men make a lot of the decisiions in this game now
lynneluvah (6:37:52 PM): though there is still the white aspect
lynneluvah (6:38:04 PM): could not more be done for urban plight overall
lynneluvah (6:38:07 PM): not in the music
lynneluvah (6:38:09 PM): but in general
lynneluvah (6:38:13 PM): or do i have to accept this as
lynneluvah (6:38:20 PM): class division
ambivalentsins (6:38:20 PM): i think when people are disenfrachised so long....at some point...it's like the movie "bamboozled"...they knew what they were doing was wrong...but wrong didn't outweight their poverty..so they put the tap shoes on and danced
ambivalentsins (6:38:29 PM): ding ding ding
lynneluvah (6:38:30 PM): oh of course
lynneluvah (6:38:41 PM): so what have you seen people saying
lynneluvah (6:38:44 PM): i saw jason post
lynneluvah (6:38:48 PM): and he linked to folks
lynneluvah (6:39:00 PM): i saw hashim and jay and jeff chang and oliver wang
ambivalentsins (6:39:12 PM): yeah, i read all of those too
lynneluvah (6:39:18 PM): i know hashim said greg tate is an old man
lynneluvah (6:39:22 PM): and i didn't get that angle
lynneluvah (6:39:24 PM): did you
ambivalentsins (6:39:26 PM): nah
lynneluvah (6:39:36 PM): so are you gonna post about it
lynneluvah (6:39:44 PM): this will be a never ending discussion though
ambivalentsins (6:39:45 PM): yeah, i think i will
lynneluvah (6:39:50 PM): i think i will too
ambivalentsins (6:39:51 PM): lol right...
lynneluvah (6:39:55 PM): but this will be my entry point
lynneluvah (6:40:01 PM): til i can sort out my thoughts more
ambivalentsins (6:40:03 PM): i'm just not with people who romantize the golden years
lynneluvah (6:40:13 PM): oh
lynneluvah (6:40:15 PM): and i hear that
ambivalentsins (6:40:18 PM): scott la rock got shot in the golden years
ambivalentsins (6:40:22 PM): so did tee la rock
lynneluvah (6:40:24 PM): there was a lot of party and bullshit back then
lynneluvah (6:40:28 PM): but do remember
lynneluvah (6:40:37 PM): that bam started these break dance comps
lynneluvah (6:40:44 PM): to try and end real battles in the streets
lynneluvah (6:40:47 PM): replacing them with dance
lynneluvah (6:40:59 PM): and do remember that melle mel's the message came out of that era
lynneluvah (6:41:08 PM): although all those cats were caught up in cocaine at the time
ambivalentsins (6:41:09 PM): oh..no doubt...
lynneluvah (6:41:14 PM): but again
lynneluvah (6:41:22 PM): i don't think people are just talking about the music
lynneluvah (6:41:26 PM): when they say hip hop
lynneluvah (6:41:31 PM): they are talking about a larger thing
lynneluvah (6:41:34 PM): regardless
ambivalentsins (6:41:37 PM): yes...
lynneluvah (6:41:39 PM): we are hip hop
lynneluvah (6:41:41 PM): u and i
lynneluvah (6:41:44 PM): like it or not
ambivalentsins (6:41:47 PM): the larger thing is always over looked though
lynneluvah (6:41:49 PM): it's what era we came up in
ambivalentsins (6:41:50 PM): yes..we are
lynneluvah (6:41:54 PM): the work we do a product of it
lynneluvah (6:41:56 PM): to an extent
ambivalentsins (6:42:03 PM): but...we're also BLACK
lynneluvah (6:42:07 PM): sactly
lynneluvah (6:42:17 PM): i think you're going where i am
ambivalentsins (6:42:19 PM): and somehow.....hip hop and the black thing....are trying to be.....seperated
ambivalentsins (6:42:26 PM): slowly
ambivalentsins (6:42:30 PM): corporately
lynneluvah (6:42:37 PM): whoa yeah
ambivalentsins (6:43:02 PM): it's like one day, some white kid is going to stand up and say hip hop is MINE....see the blues
lynneluvah (6:43:03 PM): yeah see i ain't mad at the capitlization and corportation of hip hop
lynneluvah (6:43:13 PM): corpratization
lynneluvah (6:43:18 PM): damn cant spell
lynneluvah (6:43:23 PM): thats not what i'm mad at
lynneluvah (6:43:31 PM): cuz lots of folks got to eat off of that
lynneluvah (6:43:38 PM): but we're not pimipin it
ambivalentsins (6:43:40 PM): no doubt.. i'm all for eating lol
lynneluvah (6:43:41 PM): someone else is
ambivalentsins (6:43:45 PM): right
lynneluvah (6:44:01 PM): and to play on that pimp thing
lynneluvah (6:44:12 PM): the movie you mentioned
lynneluvah (6:44:20 PM): the blaxploitation of the 70s in film
lynneluvah (6:44:33 PM): america loves a black funny man, pimp, drug dealer
lynneluvah (6:44:37 PM): just outlaw in general
lynneluvah (6:44:41 PM): as the main image
lynneluvah (6:44:45 PM): of well blackness
lynneluvah (6:44:51 PM): and when i say america i do not mean you or me
ambivalentsins (6:45:16 PM): i think the best quote i heard is....."how is that a corporation can make an artist sign a record contract, take total control over his image...but then act as though they have no power over influencing the direction he takes the lyrics" - krs one
lynneluvah (6:45:29 PM): word
ambivalentsins (6:45:40 PM): i mean, there it is in a nutshell
ambivalentsins (6:47:01 PM): what scares me most though, is the apathetic attitude hip hop listeners have..."hip hop is dead...nothing is good anymore.....nodoby's saying anything anymore".....i hear it waaay too much...
lynneluvah (6:47:16 PM): but again
ambivalentsins (6:47:19 PM): without it..would we really be celebrating kanye as a rapper?
lynneluvah (6:47:23 PM): that's an old heads vs new heads thing
lynneluvah (6:47:30 PM): cuz when you ask my 14 yr old niece
lynneluvah (6:47:35 PM): she'll tell you hip hop is banging
lynneluvah (6:47:53 PM): there's a class thing going on here
ambivalentsins (6:47:55 PM): lol my 18 year old cuz'n called snoop dogg old skool..i fell out
lynneluvah (6:47:56 PM): a race thing
lynneluvah (6:48:08 PM): and a generational thing
lynneluvah (6:48:20 PM): yeah my niece calls a couple of folx old skool that trips me out
ambivalentsins (6:48:20 PM): yes...and it's happened before
ambivalentsins (6:49:08 PM): the bad thing is...the kids today, have no teenager producing any classics...that scares me
ambivalentsins (6:49:40 PM): rakim had a classic under his belt at 16...nas at 19....krs-one at 19......
ambivalentsins (6:50:19 PM): they were brought up on good music, and it was easier for them to produce good music themselves....kids today are simply imitation hip hop's worst parts
ambivalentsins (6:50:22 PM): *shrugs*
lynneluvah (6:50:52 PM): hmm
lynneluvah (6:50:54 PM): let's see
lynneluvah (6:51:04 PM): can't say TI made a classic yet
lynneluvah (6:51:07 PM): yep you would be right
ambivalentsins (6:51:16 PM): i mean, think teenager
ambivalentsins (6:51:19 PM): there are none
lynneluvah (6:51:21 PM): cuz that's the only artist that comes close in these young cats
lynneluvah (6:51:25 PM): no that j kwon kid
lynneluvah (6:51:27 PM): what tipsy
lynneluvah (6:51:32 PM): hmmm
lynneluvah (6:51:44 PM): i can't think of any younger than...'
lynneluvah (6:51:45 PM): damn
ambivalentsins (6:52:12 PM): i listened to special ed's first album recently...and when i remembered he was only 16...i was blown away
ambivalentsins (6:52:29 PM): back in the day....the art form, was truly embraced by the kids...
lynneluvah (6:53:09 PM): word
lynneluvah (6:53:12 PM): you speak truth
lynneluvah (6:53:15 PM): no doubt
ambivalentsins (6:53:20 PM): now...the baller lifestyle is imitated...u don't see little girls dancing in the street doing the entire routines they saw on a video
ambivalentsins (6:53:31 PM): that shit used to be norm
lynneluvah (6:53:53 PM): hmm...
lynneluvah (6:53:55 PM): actually i do
ambivalentsins (6:53:57 PM): 4th graders with rhyme books....used to be norm...nobody wants to be a great emce..everybody just want to be rich
lynneluvah (6:54:05 PM): but i don't know if you want to see the lil girls doing the dances i see them doing
ambivalentsins (6:54:11 PM): lol
lynneluvah (6:54:11 PM): word
lynneluvah (6:54:14 PM): i had my rhyme book
ambivalentsins (6:54:15 PM): u stoopic
ambivalentsins (6:54:18 PM): stoopid
lynneluvah (6:54:20 PM): nah for real
lynneluvah (6:54:23 PM): the lil girls
lynneluvah (6:54:30 PM): i mean there have always been video hos
lynneluvah (6:54:37 PM): and u know the luke era
ambivalentsins (6:54:42 PM): right
lynneluvah (6:54:43 PM): but these vids today
lynneluvah (6:54:50 PM): thin line btwn them and porn
ambivalentsins (6:54:55 PM): hmmm....
lynneluvah (6:54:56 PM): though some i think are artistic
lynneluvah (6:55:00 PM): and i ain't hatin
lynneluvah (6:55:03 PM): come on
lynneluvah (6:55:05 PM): tip drill
lynneluvah (6:55:12 PM): and other stuff on uncut
lynneluvah (6:56:03 PM): the videos with the models i'm not talking about
ambivalentsins (6:56:07 PM): when i was 18..my old dude asked me what i wanted to do when i got older...and i said..."get paid".....he then reminded me there is no job called "getting paid".....and i think hip hop needs to be reminded about cultivating the talent, and getting your skills up..and if you do that, at anything, you will get paid
lynneluvah (6:56:14 PM): i have nothing against melyssa and that ilk
lynneluvah (6:56:27 PM): yeah
lynneluvah (6:56:36 PM): but instead we have a lot of mediocre talent out there
lynneluvah (6:56:48 PM): lately i been thinking about writing a post called why i hate hip hop journalists
lynneluvah (6:56:54 PM): so much mediocrity out there
ambivalentsins (6:56:58 PM): and it's not just about emceeing...we need more hip hop writers, photographers, etc
lynneluvah (6:57:03 PM): oh word
ambivalentsins (6:57:34 PM): the whole shit i think is being....compromised...yeah, that's the word, compromised
lynneluvah (6:58:05 PM): yeah
lynneluvah (6:58:10 PM): it's cyclical though
lynneluvah (6:58:13 PM): think about it
lynneluvah (6:58:20 PM): like why there is no real R&B today
lynneluvah (6:58:27 PM): and that happened even before hip hop
ambivalentsins (6:58:31 PM): imagine this....50 cent finishes a recod..and jimmy iovine, a middle aged white dude walks in a room and says..not gangsta enough..not that's compromising lol
lynneluvah (6:58:34 PM): it's b/c of the pop direction
lynneluvah (6:58:44 PM): lol
ambivalentsins (6:58:52 PM): r&b wanted to be hip hop
lynneluvah (6:58:56 PM): yeah
lynneluvah (6:58:57 PM): and pop
lynneluvah (6:59:08 PM): michael jackson coulda been the biggest r&b star
lynneluvah (6:59:14 PM): what happened?
lynneluvah (6:59:19 PM): other than you know ...
ambivalentsins (6:59:21 PM): true
ambivalentsins (6:59:39 PM): well, and prince just wanted to be a musician...so that fucked that up lol
lynneluvah (6:59:45 PM): lol
lynneluvah (6:59:46 PM): playa
ambivalentsins (6:59:51 PM): and sade only wanted to release every 7 years lol
lynneluvah (6:59:54 PM): i gotta rest my head on this for today
lynneluvah (6:59:57 PM): you getting silly
ambivalentsins (7:00:00 PM): lol okay
lynneluvah (7:00:02 PM): when you putting up your post
lynneluvah (7:00:04 PM): ?
ambivalentsins (7:00:08 PM): late tonight
lynneluvah (7:00:10 PM): k
lynneluvah (7:00:17 PM): well i'll put this up today
ambivalentsins (7:00:20 PM): gotta think on it
lynneluvah (7:00:29 PM): and i'll move to part II when i actually know what i wanna say
lynneluvah (7:00:32 PM): so if i put this up
lynneluvah (7:00:35 PM): it's gonna make you speak
lynneluvah (7:00:37 PM): really soon
ambivalentsins (7:00:40 PM): lol
ambivalentsins (7:00:48 PM): k
lynneluvah (7:00:57 PM): i'm for real
lynneluvah (7:01:02 PM): i am not editing out a thing
lynneluvah (7:01:04 PM): word for word
ambivalentsins (7:01:10 PM): k
lynneluvah (7:01:13 PM): and we're both gonna have to come with the realness
ambivalentsins (7:01:21 PM): bet!
ambivalentsins (7:01:27 PM): *gets in b-boy stance*
lynneluvah (7:01:30 PM): lol
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tracked on January 12, 2005 4:34 PM
Comments
Wow! I itched to throw my two cents in to that conversation. I'm feeling it. Because I am one of those ambivalent hip hop listeners. I'm ambivalent because if I allow myself to regard it any deeper, I'm ANGRY about the direction of hip hop (and r&b...but moreso hip hop). I'm angry because we've been through the motown pension plan. WE KNOW BETTER. And yet those of us who grew up on My Adidas, Paid In Full, I Need Love are the ones who are in a position to make sure it doesn't happen again. And all we're doing is sitting back and getting paid. *tchht* Man I could go on and on, but I'm not gonna hog your post. I'll spit when I get some more time and what not.
Holla!
posted by Monkie | January 11, 2005 10:13 PM #
"Lately i been thinking about writing a post called why i hate hip hop journalists . . ."
(laughing) That's funny.
Very interesting conversation.
I think y'all convo speaks to the generation gap that are among old heads (like me) and the young rap fans.
Personally, I love watching Nelly's "Tip Drill" video and the Federation's "Donkey" video is off the chain -- I love their song (I bump it regularly on my iPod), great booties in that video.
But I also loved 2 Live Crew, Too Short, Hoes Wit Attitude and that entire ilk back in the days. A lot of those videos on BET's Un:Cut reminds me of 2 Live Crew's videos. Too Short released an uncensored home video of his music and his "pimpology" that featured mad scantily-clad bitches. I was, like, 19 years old at the time (circa 1989-90) and I was watching these rap home videos on the VCR. At the time, that shit was scandalous.
I even went to a 2 Live Crew show and watched women stick beer bottles up their "situations" and perform "simulated" oral sex on stage. No one forced them, no one pressured them, and it was all part of the show. It's was raunchy and, well, distasteful. I was like, "Shit, this is crazy."
But guess what . . . that's was hip-hop back then. That was entertainment.
But on the flipside, I would go home and I would listen to Public Enemy, Poor Righteous Teachers and X-Clan, as well, so I can get uplifted and fight the powers that be. Whenever Public Enemy came to town in Philly I was up at the front row raising my fist.
So what I'm trying to say here is: "Hip-hop is not a perfect culture". There are some good things and bad things about hip-hop, but in the end, it's all about us and what we listen to and appreciate. We don't live in a perfect world, and hip-hop was never the beacon for hope or freedom for black people.
As far as this generational gap thing. I know a 33-year-old single mother who has a 14-year-old daughter. Her daughter loves Snoop Dogg and thinks that some of the rapper's misogynistic lyrics are funny. In essence, she doesn't pay it no mind. When I talk to mother about Snoop's "smack a bitch/ho" lyrics she's was like, "Fuck it, he's not hurting my daughter and if a man ever puts his hand on me or my daughter that nigga's dead."
Next thing you know both the mother and daughter were poppin' their booties to "Drop It Like It's Hot." It was, uhhh, kinda touching to see mom and daughter doing the bankhead bounce in solidarity -- sort of speak.
What I'm trying to say here is that there's no wide generational gap between old heads of hip-hop (like me) and this youth culture (also know as the Y generation or echo-boomer generation) that's listening to rap music now.
If the daughter or son is listening to rap music, so is the parent. If the son is going "G-G-G G-Unit" so is the father. If the daughter droppin' the booty in da club . . . look around because the mom might be poppin the booty, as well.
You see, when I was growing up and listening to rap music, my mom would always tell me to "Turn that bullshit off." When I played the Fresh Prince's "Parents Don't Understand" song to my mom -- hoping that she would understand that not all rap music is bad -- she would still insist that I "Turn that bullshit music off." She even felt that MC Hammer was bad rap music, too. Even though, MC Hammer was considered "clean/soft rap music." I mean I had to play rap music on the low in my house. Rap music was forbidden, I couldn't play it anywhere -- good or bad rap music.
My mother almost kicked me out of the house when she saw me walking around with Adidas sneakers with no shoelaces on. (I was trying to be like Run-DMC) Should yell at me: "Boy, put some shoelaces on, are you craaazzy? Goddamn it, it's that damn rap music!"
But it's not like that today -- at least that's what I think. The kids and the parents are both listening to rap music -- the good stuff and the bad. The kids are poppin' their booties and so are the parents.
Essentially, there's not a HUGE generation gap to speak of between old heads and the young generation.
It would be interesting to see who will be standing behind Essence magazine's "Fight the Music" campaign. Yeah, I know the 50-year-old grandmothers -- and maybe mothers -- would be in agreement that the misogyny and overt sexuality in entertainment must end. But will I see that 30-year-old mother with her 16-year-old daughter in agreement with the protest? Will I see that 30-year-old dad with his son putting their fists in the air in agreement that the misogyny must end in rap? Rap music's targeted audience is essentially 16-30 year olds. That's who buy and watch all of this stuff.
That's not much of a gap. There's no dichotomy (??).
I don't know. That's my three cents.
Well, Lynne and hardCore, as usual, your posts always spark my mind and I write all of this crazy bullshit.
I need to put this on my blog. As you can see I'm gathering my thoughts on this.
I just don't know what to say about Gregg Tate's piece. On the one hand, I agree with his viewpoints but then I have these thoughts circling in my head. ("Hip-hop was never perfect")
But thank you Lynne and hardCore for letting your readers ease drop on your IM conversation.
posted by Trent | January 12, 2005 12:41 PM #
You see me bobbin' my head, right?
posted by j. brotherlove![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.lynnedjohnson.com/nav-commenters.gif)
| January 13, 2005 10:51 AM #